Comments for Can a Mormon Oppose the Drug War? at http://www.ldsfreemen.com , comment 1 to 17 out of 17 comments http://www.ldsfreemen.com Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:03:46 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.2 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-67 So if I answer you are immediately discredited on both accounts. First off I have already answered all such considerations, so your dicrediting can long ago, secondly yes I absolutely have the right to enforce a standard of decency to the point of whatever enforcement that may entail so long as I adhere to the standard given of God and do not violate other's rights in the enforcement (thus the issue of practicality). There is no right to do wrong hence no violation to enforce rights in the face of that which is not right. Can we really still be debating such a simple and easy to understand principle as that? I support rights, and you support their violation and I'm the socialist:D - Jeremy Parker Sun, 13 Apr 2008 17:25:08 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-64 I see you can't/won't answer - how most socialist react when they find themselves backed into an illogical corner. - ed42 Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:18:51 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-60 Is that what this debate really comes down too? It is not a matter of technology so much as practicality. Now you're just picking nits. Cut your losses and move on. - Jeremy Parker Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:33:02 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-55 JP blurts "Many sins are entirely impractical to enforce." Are you claiming that if we had the technology to enforce the prevention or punishment of 'many sins' that we would be justified in the eyes of God by doing so? Tattoo's and piercings (more than one for females, any for males) are apparently a sin before God. Do you, Jeremy Parker, have God's authority (are you justified before God) in bulldozing down Tattoo parlors and ripping piercings from people - punishing them for these 'victimless' sins? - ed42 Fri, 11 Apr 2008 16:16:43 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-50 [quote][b]Does this imply that any sin is punishable both by God and man?[/b][/quote] Morally punishable yes, practically no. Many sins are entirely impractical to enforce. [quote][b]That which offends God not only can, but must be punished by the state?[/b][/quote] Not Must, but can, possibly. Man is given the authority. [quote][b]Wouldn't that put all of us imperfect mortals in hot legal water?[/b][/quote] Are we not already in hot legal water for violating the law? Or do we think that we will escape the consequences of our actions and resulting judgment? [quote][b]How would you prevent a wicked or selfish individual from not abusing such authority? What of individuals with no grounding in the laws of God?[/b][/quote] Well first off by not electing them to represent you, secondly by checks and balances, third by a process of impeachment. When the wicked rule, the people mourn. You assume laws of such severity are not already on the books, they are, and they are far less just and being abused left and right now! What I am saying is nothing new under the sun. Almost all laws are based in morality, all I am suggesting is that they be properly done so and that the enforcement of such likewise be proper as according to the revealed word, natural law and order, and wisdom itself. The church has always supported such laws, I am baffled as to why so many seem nonplussed by it. It is not new doctrine. - Jeremy Parker Fri, 11 Apr 2008 09:17:06 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-48 Jeremy, I'm not sure I understand the perspective you have, especially the recent statement, "give me the Zion where my rights are not defined by your acknowledgment of them but to actual and true offense, any actual and true provable offense defined by God." Does this imply that any sin is punishable both by God and man? That which offends God not only can, but must be punished by the state? Wouldn't that put all of us imperfect mortals in hot legal water? How would you prevent a wicked or selfish individual from not abusing such authority? What of individuals with no grounding in the laws of God? Perhaps I am misunderstanding your intent. If so, I apologize.[b][/b][b][/b][b][/b] - Mormon Paleo Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:03:11 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-47 "I can say no more on the matter" - let's hope so. You views are pollution to this otherwise wonderful (FREEDOM BASED) website. - ed42 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:30:17 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-45 I would be very cautious about saying that societies have rights, at leas tin a political contexts. There is no such person as society. Person or children of god have natural rights. saying that society has a right is the opening that governments use to deprive the natural rights of individuals. - JC Wed, 09 Apr 2008 07:32:14 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-43 It's really too bad for you that you cannot see it and instead cling to a [b]debased[/b] standard such as you do. I believe that we all choose our own Zion. Your's is no Zion I care to visit. Instead give me the Zion where my rights are not defined by your acknowledgment of them but to actual and true offense, any actual and true provable offense defined by God. Only then can heaven be secure from the tendencies of the natural man to offend others. [b]Offense is by it's very nature absolutely never justified.[/b] It is the height of foolishness to believe otherwise. You have fallen for satan's counterfeits of freedom and rights and I find that terribly tragic. I can say no more on the matter. - Jeremy Parker Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:58:02 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-42 You claim that God has given you the authority to prevent others from "doing wrong" and/or punish them when they do so? So why aren't you out there punishing everyone? Your socialist notions remind me of the wrong side of the war in heaven. We fought over agency - the "right" to commit wrongs. I absolutely have a 'right' to consume any herb I like, and as long as I do not violate your rights (life, liberty, property), you will not be correct in the sight of God for punishing me - that's His domain. We are allowed defense (including restitution), but vengence is His. - ed42 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:04:42 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-40 If I am a socialist, I am in good company. - Jeremy Parker Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:30:45 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-39 Elder James E. Talmage., Conference Report, October 1912, Afternoon Session., p.125-,128-129 [quote]Well, you will find that true liberty always works both ways, it never works one way alone, but is of universal application. For example, [b]I hear some men say that they claim the right to speak out and say just what they like. They make that claim that they have the right to speak out and say just what they like to say. I grant you that is true if you will let it apply the other way as well. [u]I have the right to be safeguarded against utterances which are offensive to hear[/u].[/b] [b][u]If a man says that he under the guise of his rights as a free citizen may swear and use vile and obscene language and may profane the name of God, I say to you that is not liberty, that is a license that is illegal[/u][/b]. I hear some men say that they are free citizens and they are not going to be told what to do. I grant them that right, but by the same token I claim the right to seek advice if I want it and to go to whomsoever I choose for the advice and counsel which I desire. Now the men who say that they don't want to be told usually find fault with their brothers who are willing to be told, usually criticize them because they are willing to be advised and guided. I claim the right to give advice to my brother if I do it in a manner to cause him no offense. I claim the right, if I so choose, to publish my views in magazine or newspaper or book if I can make arrangements with the publishers. I have that perfect right as long as I say nothing in my publication inimical to the rights of men nor contrary to law and order, and you have the right to read my writings or not just as you choose. I cannot force them upon you, but if there be some who do choose to read them and who are willing to be influenced and guided by them, what business is that of others who refuse so to do? I believe that we are too apt to apply these so-called rules of liberty and of freedom in a one-sided way. [b]There are men who say that they have the right to smoke tobacco if they want to, and in this State if they be of age they have that right legally and I know they exercise it (laughter), but I long to see the day when I shall have some rights too in that matter, and when I shall not be forced to breathe the foul emanations that come from smokers' mouths. I hope to see the day when women will no longer be offended as they board or leave street cars or as they pass along the streets, by having clouds of tobacco smoke blown into their faces. I believe we shall improve in the matter of liberty and come to see that there are rights that others have as well as rights that we claim for ourselves[/b]. [b][u]The spirit of the Gospel safeguards the right of no man to the injury of another[/u][/b], but provides for the liberties of all: and I hope that I will never become so lifted up in egotism that I shall feel that I am the people and that I know it all. I hope that I shall ever be led to seek for those to whom I feel I can look with confidence for advice, for counsel, for guidance, and if I choose to follow the counsel and advice of those in whom I have respect. I claim that I have the right so to do as a citizen and a free man.[/quote] - Jeremy Parker Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:29:26 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-38 Elder Joseph Fielding Smith, Conference Report, October 1922, Afternoon Session, p.74 [quote]Any man or woman in this Church who violates the commandments, though it may be one of the least, is doing injury not merely to himself or to herself, but to the entire body of the Church. We individually have in our care and keeping the good name of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and having that good name in our keeping, it is required of us that we walk circumspectly, that we be sincere in our conversation, in our deportment, in all that we do. A man may say that, if he violates one of these commandments which have been given to the Church, he is injuring only himself, but that is not the case, for he is doing an injury to the entire body of the people, because the world will judge the Church by the acts of the members. [b]I have no right to do wrong, and you have no right to do wrong[/b], although we have our agency and the privilege of doing right or wrong as we may choose in and of ourselves; but we, as members of the Church, are under covenant and under commandment of the Lord to keep his law; to observe his words.[/quote] Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 9:, p.101 [quote]Man is an independent being in his agency, to do right or wrong, and has the liberty of doing as he pleases; but I qualify this by saying that he has not the right to do wrong or to infringe upon the rights of another individual. This is the law of society, and it is also the law of heaven.[/quote] Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 9:, p.115 [quote]I have heard men say that they have a right to do wrong. In one sense, a man has such a right; and in another sense, he has no such right. We possess, in reality, very little; and that little the Lord has given us, and that is the power of choice. We may choose to do good, and, if we do good, we get the reward of good; we may also choose to do evil and reap the penalty. A man may knock another down because he has a right to, and have to pay a fine of fifty dollars because he is obliged to.[/quote] Journal of Discourses, 26 vols., 20:, p.337 - 338 [quote]and that when the time should come for us to exercise our full rights as American citizens, we might be able to administer the laws and govern in such a way that all should be protected, that every man of every creed, of every nation, and of every people, should enjoy his rights in our midst as perfectly as if he were in full faith with the majority of the people. Not the right to do wrong, not the right to practise iniquity, not the right to trample upon his neighbour, to intrude upon his rights, but the right to do that which may seem good in his own eyes, so long as he should not thereby interfere with the rights of others; the right to worship God as he pleases, to call upon him in any form that may be acceptable to him or his conscience, to believe in God, or not to believe him if he choose, so long as the belief, practice and rights of his neighbour shall not be interrupted[/quote] - Jeremy Parker Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:28:01 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-37 It comes from God. If I can prove any harm and claim real, quantifiable by society, redress. How can you assert the right to steal something from another? Who is the socialist. You would steal virtue, steal innocence and pretend that it is a part of the package of your "rights." "[b]There is no right to do wrong[/b]." - Jeremy Parker Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:43:48 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-36 Jeremy, Where does "If we as a society have the right to our virtue and to be free from the influence of drugs, then they are all but outlawed as a natural law." come from? How do you have a right to "our virtue"? (Assuming you live in SLC): Does prostitution in Alaska violate your 'rights'? Does the Idaho lottery violate your virtue rights? Does drug dealing in Saint George harm you? Does adultery in another ward even come up on your radar? So what harm is it to you if a neighbor grows "every good herb"? - ed42 Mon, 07 Apr 2008 21:02:03 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-33 I absolutely do not support the War [b]OF[/b] Drugs. I do not however think that we need a constitutional provision to prohibit their use. If we as a society have the right to our virtue and to be free from the influence of drugs, then they are all but outlawed as a natural law. Positive law becomes a joke when it attempts to embody every aspect of natural law in specifics. We know of many strange and perverse things which are clearly an abomination and that goes without saying. Licking a toads back to get high obviously one of them. Standing on a motorcycle while driving 55mph on the highway another. In the mission I served time in, there was what seemed a contest to get rules made because of your actions (I remember the gloating over the bungee jumping rule). It is the height of absurdity to need to articulate all the possible offenses of man and then to try to measure them and assign a proper corrective action. How much better if whenever any offense were committed it was to be judged by the consequences of that action and full restitution made, whatever that might be? In the case of drugs the offended community or persons would receive a full and proper restitution for whatever offense was done by any provable measure. It seems to me that is the best that positive law can hope for. - Jeremy Parker Mon, 07 Apr 2008 20:34:02 +0100 http://www.ldsfreemen.com/chris-reeve/can-a-mormon-oppose-the-drug-war.html#comment-31 Great article. For any who may support the "War on Drugs", upon what principle do you base your decision? Should we use force to stop people from consuming any substance against the Word of Wisdom (i.e. tea, coffee, etc) or to make sure we only eat meat sparingly? - Jeremy Ashton Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:26:37 +0100